I was first introduced to Jonathan Rundman’s music shortly after his incredible “Sound Theology” CD was released. This release gave me insight into what a unique quest Jonathan has in his musical career. Without a doubt, Jonathan exudes a contagious zeal for all things connected to liturgy and church in the most positive sense of both. If you ever doubted any good could come out of the church, Jonathan will give you a healthy dose of optimism.
I interviewed Jonathan back in June of 2010 but have been sitting on this one for a while given the great detail in content. I love the fact that Jonathan draws inspiration from so many familiar artists that I have grown to cherish. I now unleash Mr. Rundman and his passion for music.
Doug: What have you been listening to lately?
Jonathan: I just bought two new records recently. I got the new Eels album. It’s called “End Times.” It’s a divorce album and he recorded it on a cassette 4-track machine. So that’s kind of interesting. And then I got the new Jacob Dylan album, which is produced by T Bone Burnette. I’m a huge T Bone fan. I will buy records from people I wouldn’t necessarily purchase if T Bone is the producer. You listen to the record for the producer, not so much the artist. Both of those albums sound good on cloudy, rainy, yucky days. I’m very weather-related in my listening habits.
D: Do you have a favorite work by T Bone?
J: You know, I really loved his late ‘80s work. When I first discovered him, he was doing a Bodeans album. He also did a Peter Case album, the last Leslie Phillips and the first Sam Phillips albums, and a Tonio K album. They were all from about 1987 to 1989. I love all that stuff. And then I love his “Criminal Under My Own Hat” solo record. I also like the Allison Krause-Robert Plant album. And the Gillian Welsh album. Then he did a Tonio K album in the ‘90s called “Ole’” that is, I think, a masterpiece. So I enjoy following T Bone around.
D: In your music career path, did you have a spiritual awakening or was there a turning point? Was spirituality always something familiar to you?
J: It wasn’t a personal awakening at all because my whole life has been very active in church. But I did have a creative or musical awakening. The “Sound Theology” album was a turning point. It really changed my career in a huge way in that it made the rest of my career possible after that moment. Before “Sound Theology” I made three solo records and some side projects with other friends. It was pretty much midwestern rock and roll music, love songs, and geography songs. I’m still really proud of those albums and I still like that stuff. They got good reviews. The press really liked those records.
D: Were those considered bread and butter records for you? Were you making a living as an artist?
J: Yeah, I never had a day job. I’ve always been a “musician only” ever since high school. So my records were bread and butter even before “Sound Theology.” But I was surprised because when “Sound Theology” came out ten years ago, I had these ideas to make a record around the liturgical calendar that had fifty-two songs on it, one for each week, and follow the drama by adding Christmas, Epiphany, Lent, Easter, and Pentecost. That sounded like a lot of fun to tackle. I thought it was a crazy idea, that it might kill my career and ruin everything. But I was so excited by the idea that I would do it anyway. And actually the opposite happened. When I put that thing out, all of a sudden everything exploded! I got more press coverage than ever before and I got more attention than ever before, and I sold more records than ever before, and more people were in the audiences. It just took off like crazy. So it was a great surprise because I was worried it might be the end of me! (laughter).
D: I remember when it came out, I thought, “Well finally somebody is doing something with this, taking something from a mainstream liturgical tradition and turning it into really good artistry.” I thought, “Why has this never been thought of before? Why aren’t more people doing this?”
J: Yeah, exactly. I’ve wondered that even now because I’ve had a lot of interesting opportunities in the last ten years since making that album. I’ve gotten to know some interesting artists and play some cool venues and do some neat stuff. I still don’t ever meet anybody who identifies publically in a denominational way or in a regular congregation-based weekly church-going sort of way. I always wonder, someone like Paul Westerberg, maybe he’s a Methodist…or maybe Gwen Stefani is Catholic and goes to mass, like it might be a part of her life and nobody knows it. Sometimes I get asked to play Christian rock events where it’s like me and Switchfoot and bands like that. I think, wouldn’t it be interesting if we found out that one of the guys in Jars Of Clay was a Presbyterian, and was active in the Presbytery for wherever he lives and worked on global mission. But those guys don’t go public with it either. So if you’re a rock star, you can’t say anything about it. And if you’re a Christian musician, you can’t say anything about it. So it’s a big mystery.
D: There seems to be a divide between spirituality and organized religion. If you talk with evangelicals or even people outside of the church, you hear a lot about personal spirituality. But if you talk to somebody from the mainline church, it’s more about organized religion. I think organized religion gets a bad rap, particularly how the media throws that word around. On the other hand when you talk about spirituality, some people have a knee-jerk reaction about that as well. How have you been able to immerse yourself in that understanding of organized religion versus a personal spirituality?
J: I think I’ve had such a positive lifetime experience with organized religion that in my own story, I can’t help but celebrate the greatness of it. I’ve known that experience since I was a pre-natal infant (chuckles). I was born into this wider church community. For literally hundreds of years my family has been church people. We trace our ancestry to Finland, where I have generations of Lutheran pastors. We’re talking about going back to the Reformation in the 1600s up by the Arctic Circle. In America a lot of my relatives turned out to be organists and church musicians. So I grew up surrounded by what church people like to call “the great cloud of witnesses.” All the good stuff I enjoyed about my childhood and my friendships were because of church community. Playing together, youth group, family stuff, trips, connections, meeting people in new town, even falling in love with my future wife, all that was because of the church. Even my music career was a result of organized religion. It was the church people who asked if they could hire me to play music for such-n-such event. It was the first paying gig I ever had--I was a high school senior and I made $80 playing for a group of other teenagers. They affirmed my gifts as a musician. For me, I had a barrage of good vibes from the church.
As far as the other angle of it, the spirituality angle, I’m just not that kind of person. I’m kind of a nerd. I like books and words and rituals and the nerdy aspects of faith life. The emotional stuff of spirituality, it’s just not my personality. So luckily for me, the aspect of organized religion that sends a lot of people running for the hills is the stuff I love about it. It’s not a value statement; it’s just my own style. I like music and movies and church stuff that are nerdy.
D: Have you explored inter-religious dialogue, the idea of communing with people of other faith traditions?
J: The one example that I really treasure that was super fun was when I was living in Chicago in the ‘90s. I was out at clubs and in the music scene a lot. So I got to know a lot of the movers and shakers. There was quite a cool scene of rock and roll musicians that were Jewish. They weren’t so much practicing Jews but they were culturally Jewish. I remember every year a friend used to host the Hurray For Hanukah show at a local rock club. All the Jewish musicians would come together and play their music. They didn’t play Jewish or religious music. They would get together in celebration of Hanukah. There were a couple years where I was invited to play the Hurray For Hanukah show because I was friends with the songwriter who was coordinating it. I was thrilled to be there. We each had to do two songs. I played this song by The Hooters called “All You Zombies,” which is like an Old Testament song about Moses and Noah. I thought that would be perfect. Then the hymnal my church at that time had a really beautiful Israeli in Hebrew folk song called “Light One Candle To Watch For Messiah.” Lutherans sing it in Advent as we prepare for Christmas. But it is really a legitimate Israeli folk song. So I got up there and I played them. I couldn’t believe it because all the Jewish bands were kind of screwing around, playing their normal songs and sort of making a joke of it. And then I stand up there and I’m all religious. So everyone is like, holy cow, who is this guy that’s taking this so seriously. Then I realized maybe I’m making too big of a deal about it. That was my one interfaith rock and roll experience.
D: I wonder why there is so much Christian rock out there. I’m sort of surprised Muslim rock hasn’t come out yet. It’s a mystery to me.
J: I know there was a documentary film about a year or two ago about heavy metal music out of Iraq. Apparently it was so dangerous in Bagdad to be a heavy metal band in Bagdad that the poor guys had to move to Jordan. Then they made their record in Jordan and came on tour in the States. But it was too rough for them to be a band in Bagdad; they just couldn’t swing it. I don’t know if their music was religious necessarily or if they were just singing boy-meets-girl/boy-loses-girl kinds of songs.
D: Interesting. I’m going to ask you a fun question. You have the ability and power to put together the ultimate super group. What people are you going to employ for that band?
J: Wow, that’s a great question. Well, it’s kind of funny…in retrospect I became a fan of this band 10 years ago that is kind of like that called Rock Pile. They made one record in 1981. It was Nick Low playing the bass, Dave Edmunds playing the guitar, this British player Terry Williams playing the drums, and Billy Brenner playing the other guitar part…(my recorder cut out at this point.) I would have Eric Bazilion from The Hooters, he’s one of my favorite guitar players. Then I’d have Michael Been from The Call playing bass. (Since this interview Michael Been has passed away at age 60, may he rest in peace!) And then I’d have Jim Keltner playing drums. Then I’ll have Mitchell Froom, the producer, playing keyboards. He did the Crowded House albums, a Peter Case album, and the first Maria McKee solo album. Then I’d have Tommy Shaw from Styx singing. Sam Phillips and Maria McKee could also sing. The songs would be written by Mo Berg from The Pursuit Of Happiness, a Canadian band you might know. Oh, and Bruce Cockburn would be in the band, playing guitar, because I like Canadians. I have a lot of Canadian favorite bands.
D: Wow, that sounds like a great band.
J: (laughs) Some of them have actually played together. Cockburn, Michael Been, Jim Keltner, and Sam Phillips are all on a Bruce Cockburn record from 1991, “Nothing But A Burning Light.” And T Bone Burnett produced it. So they have already been a band. That must be why I like that record so much.
D: Those are all the questions I have.
J: Great questions. I love doing interview, especially with someone who knows the material and understands my weird situation. I think it’s a lot of fun.
D: Thanks so much for putting your all into this. You definitely are inspiring. A lot of people listen to music but they don’t know where it’s coming from and what the artist is all about.
J: I know what you are saying because I am a gigantic music fan. And that’s how I listen to records. I am fascinated about the song writing process. I love to find out what the artist was thinking about. I wonder about how their career evolved and what happened between them and the audience, and all those sort of dynamics. I don’t lose any of the magic when I find out the gory details. The more I know, the more I love it. I don’t feel like the Wizard Of Oz moment where you see the guy behind the curtain. That doesn’t bother me. That makes me love it more. It’s the musical motivation, the creative process, the unveiling of that stuff that is really delightful. I’m thrilled if anybody is interested in my own work in that regard. This is my 20th anniversary of being a recording artist. I’ve been at it long enough that I can reflect on my own career now, to see the development, phases, and eras of who I am as a writer.
